Uromastyx.org

Hi everyone. I just bought a cbb ornate. I am not new to herps or uros but husbandry has changed since I last kept one and I have read that the preferrred substrate is millet. At what age or size does this become safe? Is millet safe to use with an undertank heater? thanks

Hi and welcome to the forum. Doug Dix at Deer Fern Farms, a well known Uromastyx producer and guru, suggests using millet once the juvenile is over 6 inches total length http://www.deerfernfarms.com/Uromastyx_Care.htm.

thanks for the info. Any thought on the undertank heater safety with millet? possible fire? Thanks

Out of curiosity, why do you feel the need to use a UTH? Generally speaking they are not recommended for uromastyx, a ceramic heat emitter would be a much better bet for supplemental heat, specifically at night. As for substrate, a topic highly debated, millet seems to be a relatively popular option however I personally use non-coated ceramic tiles but intend to add a natural substrate when my uros become a bit larger (above 7"). A lot of people go with washed play sand, soil, or a combination of the two, as well. I'll most likely go with the latter.

the uth is for warming the tank. I intended it to provide additional heat. In theory abot 10-15 degrees. during the day the spotlights and full spectrum provide enough heat and light but I was looking for alittle more even heat in the day and some night heating. I was also under the impression that the under tank heater was more energy efficient than the che and posed less of a fire risk. My original plan was to build a tank and use a infared heating panel for primary heat but with a glass tank and screen lid I dont think it will work. Back in the day we used sand over a clay substrate but it was a pain to clean and a husbandry nightmare. From what I have read millet helps with these issues although not eliminating it. Tile or bare bottom would be a hassle as well. trying to keep it clean, as well as the appearance. My uro is currently on paper towel but will be moving to carpet. Why is a uth not recommended for uros? Is there something different with their anatomy than other herps? Thank for your help.

Vers:I too wonder why you feel an UTH is not recommended for uros?
Do you mean as the sole source of heat? Then that of course would not be recommended as they need a basking heat lamp.
But a basking heat lamp in combination with an UTH, I think is perfect for Uros. Leave the UTH on all the time, including nighttime and have the basking lamp on during the day.

No, I meant in general They are not recommended because uromastyx do not have thermal sensors on the underside of their body, which prevents them from judging temperature from beneath. The problem is UTHs can overheat, which can cause serious injury if the uromastyx has direct contact with the surface it's mounted to. At least if the CHE overheats it will do so at a safe distance where the animal has no direct contact with it. In addition, if a CHE is mounted properly/securely it will not pose any fire risk. Either way you only need to provide supplemental heat at night if ambient temps in the room drop below 65f. If this is the case and you're having trouble keeping temps up during a night cycle think about making a custom solid top, with two or three hinged panels/doors to mount lighting to and allow access.

Here are a few shots of my enclosures to give you guys an idea of how they are setup.

In this shot you will see a CHE followed by a 120 watt halogen on a dimmer and a PowerSun 160. Directly above the camera there was a 23 watt CFL, which has since been replaced with a 70 watt (90 watt equivalent) energy saver halogen


My smaller four foot enclosure incorporates a similar set up


The vents that you see have been closed off for the winter, which helps retain heat at night. It's been so warm in the north east that I've actually only had to use the CHE once in the larger enclosure, otherwise temps hardly ever drop below 70.

As for tile being a hassle, in my experience it hasn't been one at all, in fact just the opposite.

Thanks for the info and pictures. You have really nice enclosures.
I'm in the northeast and all my reptiles are relegated to the basement (thanks to my wife). So I need supplemental heat all the time, especially at night.

I'm not trying at all to discredit your ascertian about Uros lacking ventral heat sensors. I'm just wondering where you obtained this information. I'd just like to read more about it. It goes against my thinking in that depending on the qualities of the substrate (material, color, heat retention etc.), the surface they are resting on when basking could actually be hotter than the direct solar heat rays they are feeling on their back. This could happen both in nature and in captivity. So I just wonder why/how they evolved to lack that detection on their ventral surface. Is this something common to desert dwelling herps?

Thanks

Brian

Thank you I understand you questioning my reasoning. Let me try to explain my position a bit better. When a reptile basks in the wild it will generally pick a single spot, lay on it and absorb the initial surface heat. After a few minutes the surface temp directly beneath the footprint of the lizard will drop dramatically. The problem with UTHs and heat rocks is the surface temperature beneath the animal never drops. If such a device were to overheat (this is a well known occurrence) it could pose great risk to the animal. Think about what happens when you go to the beach and you first step foot on the hot sand, after a short period the sand's temp beneath your feet or body will drop and stabilize. Now, think if the temp of the sand were to remain consistently high. Now, think about a slow cooker. Do you understand where I'm going with this? As for sources, there are many that do not recommend the use of an UTH, one of them is UroWiki. In the end I'm not saying you cannot use them, rather that there are safer options. If you do end up using one ensure the animal cannot come in direct contact with it and or the glass it's fixed to, this even applies if you have loose substrate above the heater. A rock or similarly large dense object placed directly above would be better than nothing.

Thanks for all of the replies. It is good to know there are othere herpers out there. I havent posted back as I have been mulling over and digesting the ideas that have been presented. I have also been poring over my reptile books and animal anatomy books and cant seem to find the "heat sensors" that are located on top of the uro. I would like to delve into them more but could use some help on narrowing down to what they are? As far as the idea of the sand being cooler under your feet maybe. But I have a few questions and observations about sunbathing behavior. I have spent most of my chilhood in desets and caught and observed more species than I care to count. Most species tend to find large outcroppings of rock, overhangs, or other area to bask on. I suppose they provide a mini world for them. If I apply the stepping on sand idea to this environment, The rocks will be very hot and maybe cool slightly when you put your hand on them but then they will warm back to their prior heat. If that is hot enough to burn then I will get burned. The thermal mass of the rocks and their thermal gain far overpower the mass of my hand or the much smaller mass of the lizards. I have experience with touching these outcroppings and its not pleasant. With this in mind I cant imagine that there are sensors on top of the lizard that regulate the feeling of being warm. Radiation absorbtion, most definatly. Heat , I doubt it. As far as the uth burning their skin when touched I think it might be possible if the uth had some major issues. The uth ratings that I can find listed say that they reach 90 degrees. Definatly not going to burn anything at this temp. My basking site is well over that. My guess is that the surface temp of the rock under your spot light is way above 90? Do you have one of those cool remote temp guns that I keep seeng for sale. If so could you give it a shot? My curiosity is killing me as to what mine should be at.
As far as fire danger I dont know if the uth or che is safer. To compare I think you would compare as working correctly. uth- 90 degrees dissipated over a sheet of glass. che- I have no idea what temp but listed as a danger to burn skin if touched or cause fire if materials come in contact. As far as I can tell form my research they work best in enclosed tanks as the radiate more than project heat. This would lend itself to wood tanks such as yours. Wood tends to dry and build heat then combust? If you have a temp gun here is another request for a temp on the che and fixture maybe wood surrounding the fixture.
I hope this expessed the thoughts that have been running through my mind here lately without coming off argumentative. Thanks for your time and input.